confliction: (Default)
[personal profile] confliction
(Plural - Representing the Facets of God)
(No apostrophe - It's not Hers, she doesn't own 'this')

(Each song reflects an aspect of how i feel)

- - - - - - - -

"You've gotta forget about what you think you know, about this, especially about us. We don't own this"

- - - - - - - -

In my module "Anarchism and Contemporary Global Protest" I've learnt about a cool guy called Proudhon. That's his last name anyways. (Jean-Pierre is his first). He wrote a book, which i'd like to read, entitled 'What is Property?'. Anyways, to cut a long story short, property is relative to theft. We should only have rights of possession to the things we use, but the community has the rights to decide on the disposal of those things. Working together, as a community, to decide what we do with things. In other words... become 'stewards' of the Earth.

- - - - - - - -

This is going to be rather vague, but i hope you can appreciate the enormity of what i have come to realize.

The reason it's rather vague, is because there are lines i'm not willing to cross yet, until i can fully comprehend the consequences of my actions.

I don't want to start a religion you see, because religion is bad.

Faith is good however.

- - - - - - - -

As Frank Herbert said... along the lines of...
"If someone asks you if you're starting a cult, do what i do. Run like hell."

- - - - - - - -

The reasons for not starting a religion are quite clear.
No matter how pure the message may be in the beginning, as soon as it's put to paper by man, it becomes corrupt.
It also stops people taking responsibilty for themselves, and makes them rely on some saviour to help them.
It gives 'evil' the chance to control people.
Religion is Control.

- - - - - - - -

This all probably sounds whacky.

In my Philosophy of Law Module, we've learnt about two different kinds of law so far. There is 'Natural Law' and 'Human Law'... pretty much. That's my interpretation by the way.
Natural law has no way of enforcing itself.
It's about choice.
The same with faith... that's a choice.
Science cannot prove anything.

- - - - - - - -

"The Problem, is Choice"

- - - - - - - -

Human law, however, is all too readily enforced.
Not only that, but there can be highly immoral laws.
Unjust Laws.
Human Law is Control.

- - - - - - - -

I'm still learning...
...I'll forever learn.

But so far, one basis for Natural Law, is the Golden Rule.
This is a rule that is repeated throughout most religions,
and infact, other philosophies of belief, ie. Taoism etc.
It goes something like...
...infact... I'll paste them.

- - - - - - - -

HINDU: This is the sum of duty; do naught unto others which if done to thee
would cause thee pain.

ZOROASTRIAN: That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another
whatsoever is not good for itself.

TAOIST: Regard your neighbour's gain as your own gain, and your neighbour's loss
as your own loss.

BUDDHIST: Hurt not others in ways that you would find hurtful.

CONFUCIAN: Do not unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

JAIN: In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures
as we regard our own self.

JEWISH: Whatever thou hatest thyself, that do not to another.

CHRISTIAN: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them.

ISLAMIC: No one of you is a believer until SHE desires for HER SISTER
that which SHE desires for HERself.

SIKH: As thou deemest thyself, so deem others.

- - - - - - - -

I changed the Islamic one to relate to the female form.
Mainly for two reasons i can share at this time.
1) God is a woman... man is evil.
2) Even Scientifically, we're all, technically, sisters.
We were all women once. We also came from a woman. We're
all daughters. Women give life. These are facts.
(Although my interpretation of the facts are not fact)

I also noticed that the Christian (white middle aged men run the world) version...
...sounds similar, but has been switched around. Which can breed revenge and such things.
Kinda Old Testament. I wonder if it was corrected in the New Testament?
Just an example of how a good message can become contorted.

- - - - - - - -

Anyways, what does this Golden Rule have to do with Natural Law?
Well, all of these ways of phrasing the rule have a lot of logic
behind them, especially in the non-religious beliefs, Natural Law
does not necesarily have to include a 'higher' law.

- - - - - - - -

Believing that God is infact Nature...
God is everything...
God is Life...
Then the higher law being 'Natural'...
...found in Nature...
...makes sense to me.

I won't get into the history of the conflicts between religions.
Mainly because Religion is evil.

- - - - - - - -

I keep digressing. If that's how that's spelt.
From this Golden Rule, one should easily be able to see Karma at work here.
Not Sin. (sorry all you religious folks... catholicism is evil, christianity, all religions)
What goes around comes around. That kinda thing.
From this we can obtain the 'Natural Laws'
The most highly regarded of which (arguably, although i'd agree)...
...is 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.

The logic behind this is reasonably simple.
It's in your best interest not to be killed.
So if we all mutually agree not to kill each other...
...then we're all treating each other how we'd like to be treated.

But it's a choice.
There is no enforcement.
Although there is the Karma issue.

Just don't kill people.

- - - - - - - -

I'm trying...
...always have been trying...
...to come up with an all encompassing answer.

- - - - - - - -

My entire existence...
...not only in this lifetime,
but throughout the history of life on this planet...
...in every incarnation...
...every lifetime...
...the things my soul has been through...
...has led me to this moment.

I can safely say I know Gods Plan.

Well... actually, I've thought about that a lot...
...I know parts of it.
Probably quite small parts comparitively...
In the Infinity of things.
The Eternity of things.
The Forever of things.

- - - - - - - -

No one should tell someone how to behave.
We all have Freewill.

Notice how all Human Law is in all actuality...
...a threat.
Do this... or else!

- - - - - - - -

Anyways... to cut all this short, i've already said too much...

... if ... (when) ...
...the end comes...
...the will be great war and suffering...
...but such is life...
...do not fear...
...just don't kill anyone...
...this means not joining the army...
...join the revolution...
...we'll sing, and dance, sit on our asses...
...we'll protest too...
...some of us may even try and stop the wars...
...but don't kill anyone...
...and if your religion tells you to kill someone else...
...dont obey.

You have a choice.

- - - - - - - -

Here's a few little things to get you thinking...

i) The perfect language... is music.

ii) The perfect form of writing is Art.

iii) The pattern of Art is the Octave.
An octave of sound
An octave of light
An octave of shapes (Platonic Solids)

- - - - - - - -

I'm going to write a book.

- - - - - - - -

Back to reality...
...life in Uni is pretty cool.
I'm enjoying my modules.
I'm enjoying dossing about.
Life's cool, when you don't get involved in the artificialities of it.
Reality is cool i should say.
Life is a bunch of meaningless bollox.

- - - - - - - -

Oh yeah... and there is no one in control.

This entire thing called society, all the types of it, this situation on Earth.

It's all a headless blunder.
Hence why it's so messed up.
If someone was in control, it'd be a lot more structured.
It makes sense.
To me at least.

- - - - - - - -

You can feel free to ignore me, but never forget what i've said.
Sure, I've run the risk of 'telling' people what to do.
But it's really your choice.
I've shown you the door.
Join the revolution.

- - - - - - - -

Hope you're all cool.
Relax.
Don't stress.
Do what you want.
Fulfil your dreams.
Be cool to each other.
Peace.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-03 09:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hentaiko.livejournal.com
sounds cool your researching all this stuff and coming up with interesting theories. if you have a spare night, just research the story of 'John Titor'. im mostly sure its a fake, but its still a good 'story' (thats how i view it). i started here: http://www.johntitor.com/. its also good as it 'unfolds' (ie you visit the links and forums, and you see stuff people wrote and indeed still write, although its died down alot i presume from the start)
if you also have spare time, learn japanese. its fecking hard, but lol, caz me and beany are learning it (unless i drop out, lol. i'll try my damn hardest not to).
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-03 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hentaiko.livejournal.com
hes cool, thats all :P

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-03 11:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
i shall look into that after i format my computer.

as for learning japanese, i think i'll give it a miss...
...i'm going to learn arabic...
...although i'm actually considering learning Sanskrit.
Bar Music, Sanskrit is probably humans best attempt at the perfect language. It has an alphabet of 49 letters, as such. Your considered capable of using the language when you have a vocabulary of around 250,000 words. Very descriptive. Ouch :)

Whacky me. :P

Goodluck with Japanese, it's something that i'm sure would bring you a lot of fulfilment, considering your interest in Japan and such. Enjoy :)

Take care,
JJ

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-03 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hentaiko.livejournal.com
cheers, i'll try my dang hardest to learn japanese ;)

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-04 10:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyldwytch.livejournal.com
matt and John sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G!!!

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-05 04:49 am (UTC)

Questions, questions, questions...

Date: 2003-10-03 09:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyldwytch.livejournal.com
If we can 'assist' animals in death by injection then why can we not 'assist' other humans?
Would that be a killing? Or helping?
Would killing an animal be the same as killing a human?

Why are they considered the lesser creature because we can not 'communicate' with them through words??

If I was a 'fluffy bunny' I would bitch that you haven't mentioned Wicca or Witchcraft but we have no 'offical' texts (well Witchcraft anyway) to say what is right or wrong, blah blah. I will however say that I don't believe there can only be one God.
Women need men, men need women. Hence why should one God be alone? (do you think we 'humanize' our gods? Do you think we do that because we want to feel like we can communicate with them on 'our level'?)
I love the thought on the cycle being completed through women, women give birth, women die, etc yet the catalyst is in the man. Sorry, the thought just comforts me.

I've gone off on one!!!

I'm having a fun time JJ! Learning is so hard when you've done art for 5ish years and I only had to create not think! Thinking independently is kinda hard when you're used to the stucture of school!
I'm stressing less and less! Life is going... like a river...

I hope you're ok! Let me know before hand at anytime if you want some skunk or anything! I could even get you a young(ish) steveo girl (joking!!)

Re: Questions, questions, questions...

Date: 2003-10-03 11:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
I'd say, from my own point of view, that you should treat others how you would like to be treated.

If you want to be put out of your misery, or someone else does, then fair enough.

I'm no longer going to tell anyone what to do.

It's their choice.

This is all an abberition.
This is all an experience called life.
And that life, for me, is an artistic expression of the battle between Good and evil.

As for there being many Gods... well, yes, i believe there are many 'God-like' beings, but any of them that claim to be the one true God... shouldn't be paid much attention to.

For me, the One true God, is everything...
it is you
it is me
it is the other Gods
it is nothing
it is everything
it is forever

blah

just my opinion.

the answer to the question can be come to very differently for every person.

this is my life
my viewpoint

every leads a different spiritual path.

Its cool you learnt Art and stuff.
More useful.

I'd like your mobile number, or for you to text me, because i don't think i have the right one... *shrug* cause i need that dealers name again.

I'm ok though :)
Hope you're doing cool!

Laters :)

JJ

Re: Questions, questions, questions...

Date: 2003-10-04 09:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyldwytch.livejournal.com
Mobile number: 07971186913
Send me a text on Friday or after that whenever ya want 'stuff'. I should have my phone reconnected by then.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-04 08:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] popsickle.livejournal.com
=) Woah you always blow me away with all your knowledge and theories and ideas, if you write a book, id love to read it. This may be good, this may be bad, but the thing that really touched me was The perfect language... is music. you are sososo right, music is amazing, without it, life would suck. Im glad you're enjoying uni, i can't wait to go next year =). Take care dude, tlak to you soon,
<3 Me xxxx

Spank you very much ;)

Date: 2003-10-04 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
I think i'm gonna write a book. Would be nice. Give me something to do. I'm thinking of making my first one just a boring philosophical attack on some guy i don't like... lol. Karl Marx did that a lot... Some philosopher wrote a book called "The Philosophy of Poverty" to which Marx replied with a book entitled "The Poverty of Philosophy". I thought that was funny AS !

I'm glad that touched you, and i'm sure it's all good :) I agree with you, without music, life would suck monkey ass! :P Art makes life worth living. (Cause life is Art? :P)

Anyways, babbling again ;)

Take care (again :P)
<3 xx JJ xx |== (I made a sword, lol... stooooned!)

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-06 08:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beanybeany.livejournal.com
You know it had to come :p it's more interesting that way.

TAOIST: Regard your neighbour's gain as your own gain, and your neighbour's loss as your own loss.

I think this one seems to have both stop doing, and start doing, but without any action or concentrating on the individual, in a more global sense.

CHRISTIAN: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them.


also noticed that the Christian (white middle aged men run the world) version...
...sounds similar, but has been switched around. Which can breed revenge and such things.


How can it breed revenge and such? It would take some twisted logic - I guess if you wanted people to punch you, using this line alone could justify punching others. But with the some of the other ones you could do that too. I quite like this one - mine is the only one that is an instruction to activly help :)

ISLAMIC: No one of you is a believer until SHE desires for HER SISTER
that which SHE desires for HERself.


I think it's funny that you insist God is a woman. Or a man, either. Even in your system, if God is everything (kinda fashionable at the moment, but hey :p) then he's about 50/50.

I changed the Islamic one to relate to the female form.
Mainly for two reasons i can share at this time.
1) God is a woman... man is evil.
2) Even Scientifically, we're all, technically, sisters.
We were all women once. We also came from a woman. We're
all daughters. Women give life. These are facts.
(Although my interpretation of the facts are not fact)


1) Hmmm, putting chicks on a pedastal there man. Why do you say this?

2) Genetically, I was never a woman. For the first few weeks, women and men grow in the same way, but with my gene system, there is no way that I could be a fully functioning woman. I might be able to be a 'woman' with a sex change operation, but my genes aren't wired up for carrying kids.

3) A woman cannot give life on her own. If she could, she wouldn't be a she, she would become a combination of male and female, thus asexual. The female is the one who carries the child, I think.

religion is bad

This is one of the most odd things I hear. I get the same thing from Christians the whole time 'Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship'. Apart from my object to cliches, at it's basics, a religion is a group of people with commonly held beliefs. I could possibly see how institutionised religion is bad, because it can draw away from the main point of the whole thing.

No matter how pure the message may be in the beginning, as soon as it's put to paper by man, it becomes corrupt.
It also stops people taking responsibilty for themselves, and makes them rely on some saviour to help them.
It gives 'evil' the chance to control people.
Religion is Control.


You say pen to paper - surely the problem is when things are read. Writing is the way of communicating things, more lasting than words. And the whole responsibility thing, on the whole, the Christians I know take a lot more responsibility for themselves, their lives and the people around them than the unbelivers I know. I don't know too many people from other faiths to comment.

Most religions don't give you a saviour, that's quite a unique Christian claim, if my comparative religions are correct. They give you a set of principles, a way to be saved, but Christianity gives you a person who says these are the rules, but you can't keep them, so there's another solution.

I guess I think people aren't good enough. Not that we're inherintly evil, just that we do bad stuff, and we're not able to fix it. We're not smart enough or strong enough.

I would say more, but I've got Japanese now :) So, Sayonara.

And as for the revolution, I'll join, sure, but I haven't found anything about, well anything, that impresses me quite as much as Christ has. So I guess there's room.

Peace

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-06 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beanybeany.livejournal.com
Back from Japanese, and eating (made my omlette work at last - after 5 tries :> ) and washing laundery. So it's all good :>

2 things. I came back checking that I hadn't just gone off on one to attack what you said. I hadn't, so it's okay :)

Also, why do you use the archaic translations of these texts? The 'thou's and 'thee's haven't been used in english for about a hundred years, and it doesn't help with the understanding.

Anyways, have a good one

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-06 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
Yes, i knew it had to come :P

To start with, i'd say you've missed the rather general point i was making, which was that these are examples of various beliefs upholding the values of Natural Law. Natural Law being the only law which involves Freedom of Choice (Freewill, whatever) and is also completely Unenforceable. I guess my rather 'oppurtune' attack against Christianity provoked a response from yourself.?. The Islamic version is rather sexist, as i'd like you to note that the other beliefs don't use 'sex' related words. This is still seen today with some Islamic cultures 'demanding' that women wear Bhurkas. Anyways, my attack against the Christian way of putting the statement, is that it is the only statement to put the 'i' before the 'them'. If you catch my drift. How does it 'breed' revenge? Well... it could be (most probably, since it's a reversed logic (not some "twisted logic")) taken to mean that whatever anyone does to you, you do to them. Sloppy wording... probably led to the whole Old Testament thing with the 'eye for an eye' thang.

You follow me?

Anyways, yes, institutionalized religion, that's what im having a dig at. good good.

ummm... God as a woman... well, in reference to 'God' i think we should call God a she, rather than a He... who cares about 'convienience sake'... it just makes more sense to call Her a She.

True, a woman cannot give life on her own, but like, i'm not even going to argue, cause i agree. This wasn't my point. Maybe I'm too vague.

Why do i say men are evil and put women on a pedestal? Maybe because I'm old fashioned and feel that women aren't equal, but not in a bad

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-06 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
gah

my entry was too big...

women aren't equal... but not in a bad way... anyone that says everyone is born equal... should be considered insane. I just feel they should be protected and what not... romanticism? sexism? pah... couldn't give a shit.

Gah... i wrote so much...

...but ignoring everything else, the main point was that you're words have been taken into consideration... together with the already ensuing battle in my own mind against the very ideas i 'once' held with so much conviction... such is the way of my ideas... in a constant state of flux.

Anyways, alls good.

Take care :)
JJ

P.S. Good luck with the Japanese!

P.P.S. I chose the archaic translations because they were readily available... good enough excuse...? *shrug*... i understand them easily... but then again... i understand Plato and Aristotle now, without having to re-read sentences... scary shit :P

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-07 03:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beanybeany.livejournal.com
Yeah, I can understand the archaic versions too - I used to be better at it, in my Shakespear studying days. I like Shakespear, he's a good writer. It's just most people can't read them, especially people who learn English as a second language (I spend a lot of time with foriegn students nowadays, it's really interesting)

I dunno - the whole women thing. I KNOW that males and females aren't the same, but I wouldn't go so far as to say we're not all equal.

You're right, the inverse of it is the 'eye for an eye' thingy. But I know what Jesus said about that:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

The sermon on the mount :) it is fantastic. Probably the most influential speach ever ;) Well worth a read.

If we're talking about large-scale institutionalised religion, I don't think I've seen any benifits to the outside world from it (I guess one day I'll have to clarify what I mean :) ), I suppose it's been damaging. I guess, if you have a large pyramid, then people who climb it are probably looking for power. The early Church didn't really have layers, and at worst they had 3 or 4 - normal Christians, those in charge of churches, and apostles.

Just as an example close to home, one of the main reasons the entire industrial revelution happened was because of the preaching of Wesley (interesting guy) and the methodist movement. And the advanced cultures in the world today were all based on Christianity, and the most powerful, has been almost completly based on it. But it's all about the people, never about the organisations. That's why I love the American seperation of Church and State, the Church, while having influence there, only has as much influence as the people who believe it. No actual power.

I personally think the culture we live in is better than any other type. It has it's flaws, but it's really only nowadays that people aren't stuck in class segrigation. Choice, like you said.

And onto the Old Testament - most of those Laws, God was telling His people how to govern, and as such it's about dealing with the symptoms, the things people see. But Christianity isn't about that - it's a bit, but mostly it's about dealing with the person inside. Going for the root of the problem, as it were.

Anyways, I'm spouting off, so I'll stop.

Have a good one

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-07 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hentaiko.livejournal.com
thank god i dont do philosphy. kinda in the same way thank god i dont have to learn 46 squiggles for next monday in japanese. w00t!

i wont even pretend i read the comments texts in full, because partly its over my head and i'd have to read it many times, and i have to go to lectures in 10 mins for wonderful Artificial Inteligence (eek, more philosphy).

i think you need shorter posts jj :P for the short attention spans like me :) ooh, and i wanted to ask, why have you created your own type of 'paragraphing', like u can put the sentances wherever the hell you damn like? its cool, is it relative to being non-conformist? or am i thinking in the wrong track. nevermind, anyway, have fun uni fun fun. except coursework. coursework bad.

oh yeah, got battlefield 1942 working, w00t fun. my housemate bought it, so i installed it and put in my cdkey. im gonna get copies off him, so yay, i dont have to replace my broken and 'misplaced' cds :P

(no subject)

Date: 2003-10-07 06:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
A.I. ... so you do DO some philosophy then :P Philosophy rocks. Explain to me some of the basic 'thinking' behind creating A.I., or anything about it that's interesting :P

I'll post a short post just for you... sometime soon :) The way i 'paragraph' as it were, is just because i think the pauses and breaks and starting new lines emphasizes any stoppage in my own line of thinking. I'm just trying to reflect the way i think... which is highly impossible, but this is as far as i've got so far. With the sectioned off little paragraphs reflecting a few of the many other thoughts my mind decides to have.

I can't even write short replies... there's no hope :P

Dang it... i remember now. I tracked your battlefield cd down... to a friend at Uni. God knows how it got here... but i shall make it my mission to retrieve it.

Anyhow, i shall endeavour to have fun at Uni, hope you're doing the same :)

Take Care,
JJ
From: [identity profile] greenhayze.livejournal.com

Its taken me... I dont know how long to read this thread, but a long time anyway. You people need to learn short posting :p
I cant believe now everyones doing Japanese, I feel so last year, tee hee. Its gonna be dead cool when we're all in one place, non-japanese tutored people will be screwed... :p Sorry I shouldnt think in such sadistic terms.
Anyway, JJs posts were interesting. You say religion is evil but it rises out of a real necessity. And when you say there is only one true way of doing things (natural law? too much to read, too much imput, confuzzled) you kind of sound the same as the other religious enthusiasts. If youre always aggressive you will often find yourself off balance.
From: [identity profile] hentaiko.livejournal.com
bwahaha. although saying that, i think we'll all be saying "good morning, how are you" and "two tickets to kyoto please", instead of any meaningful conversation, lol. anyway, w00t from me.
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
Took me longer to write :) Thank you for reading it though! I'm not learning Japanese, so i guess i'll be one of the screwed people :P Although if i learn any Sanskrit... bwahahahaaa...

Well, when i say 'religion' i do mean the institutionalized kind. I agree there is a need for 'faith'. Some sort of self chosen moral code based on this faith... although you could still get individuals with some messed up beliefs... but without an organization... they're just on their own.

I hope i didn't mean to imply there is only one way of doing things. The answer can be arrived at in many ways. But for me, one of the most logical, non-human (although interpreted by humans with meaning added by them), ways is to look at Natural Law.

Anyways, as i said to Beany, i'm in a constant state of flux, and the entire post, or maybe even various parts of it, reflect, somewhat, the state of thought in my mind at that time.

Blah.

Hope you're having a cool time at Uni, or at least not a shitty one... like me... damn student loans company. Stress... argh.

Blah.

Take care :)
JJ
From: [identity profile] greenhayze.livejournal.com

Aw, shit yeah. Student loans *groan*. Plus Ive got this fuckin plane flight to buy. Im gonna be completely broke in a week... :(
But other than money everything is going cool. Finding lots of Buddhist stuff.
From: [identity profile] confliction.livejournal.com
I was going to buy plane tickets today... but i can't until the student loan i gave myself... is given to me... lol. The cheque has to clear. Damn-buggering-blast!

Custom Text

When life makes us sad,
See clouds above head,
Feel rain on cheek,
Stones beneath feet,
And just think,
How indifferent are they to how we feel?

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